Welcome to Part Five! The Oathbringer Reread has reached the final part, and things are getting crazy. This week, though, we take a step back for Dalinar’s final flashback chapter, wherein he visits the Nightwatcher and gets more than he bargained for. Come on in!
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread—if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s reread we also discuss some things from the original Mistborn trilogy in the Cosmere Connections section, so if you haven’t read it, best to give that section a pass.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHERE: The Valley
WHEN: 1168, approximately five and a half years ago.
In this week’s chapter, Dalinar flashes back to his visit to the Nightwatcher. He goes in and requests for his boon: forgiveness. Cultivation arrives, as this boon is beyond her daughter, and gives Dalinar what she calls a “pruning.” She removes all memory of Evi from his mind, thereby allowing him to move past the guilt and the sorrow and grow. However, she does warn him that these memories will grow back in time.
United Front
Title: The Cost
ALL MEMORIES OF HER. THIS IS THE COST.
A: This is one of the five places “the cost” is mentioned in this chapter. The first three look forward to an unknown cost; the last one is Dalinar vaguely registering what the cost was. This one spells it out.
Also, ouch.
Heralds:
Vedel: Healer, Edgedancers, Loving & Healing
Paliah: Scholar, Truthwatchers, Learned & Giving
Shalash: Artist, Lightweavers, Creative & Honest
Battar: Counsellor, Elsecallers, Wise & Careful
A: Wow. Four Heralds on this chapter! Vedel, Paliah, Shalash, and Battar, all at once. Is that because of the five women, these four are most tied to Cultivation? Or maybe just because all the women are more of Cultivation than of Honor, and Chana as the Guard has the least to do with this chapter? On second thought, I can see all eight of these divine attributes in Cultivation’s behavior this week, so… I’ll go with that! (Makes sense, if they all reflect her attributes, doesn’t it?)
Icon: Inverse Kholin Glyphpair, so you know it’s a Dalinar flashback chapter (as if the “Five and a half years ago” all in bold capitals didn’t tell you…).
Stories & Songs
What in the Almighty’s tenth name had that been? One moment, he’d been lying in his bunk. The next, he had been… Well, he didn’t rightly remember. What was the drink doing to him now?
L: I find it interesting that the visions were coming to him even before his redemptive arc has begun. Did the remnants of Honor see the potential in him even before his visit to Cultivation? That’s very interesting, as it seems to indicate a bit of “seeing the future” to me…
A: Well, in the last vision, Honor says that Cultivation is better at it than he is, not that he can’t do it at all. I suspect all the Shards have some ability in that regard, Vorin prohibitions notwithstanding.
He had hoped for the Thrill to aid him here. This was a challenge, was it not? He felt nothing, not even a hint.
A: My first thought was that the Unmade wouldn’t want to be anywhere near Cultivation, but in actuality, it’s probably just that Nergaoul has been hanging out in Alethkar, and is moving along with the armies toward the Shattered Plains—both of which are far to the east of his current location.
L: Yeah, my money’s on location/distance.
He trudged through the darkness, and suddenly felt stupid. What was he doing here? Chasing a pagan superstition while the rest of the highprinces gathered to punish Gaviar’s killers?
…
Wait. What was that? … Weeping. …
He heard a boy weeping, pleading for his life. It sounded like Adolin. …
Suddenly he saw himself in the Unclaimed Hills, fighting those traitorous parshmen. … He saw himself strangling Elhokar, who had never possessed his father’s poise or charm. Dalinar took the throne. It should have been his anyway. …
… Dalinar forged a unified Vorin empire that covered half of Roshar. An unparalleled feat!
And he saw them burn. …
… Yes, he had escaped the drink. He had become something grand and terrible.
This was his future.
A: So… what is all this? Clearly, something is messing with his mind, but I’m not sure what. Is it one of the other Unmade trying to turn him back? Or is it something of Cultivation, intended to make people think twice before bargaining with the Nightwatcher? It certainly seems intentional, whatever it is.
L: Definitely reads as Cultivation trying to scare people off to me. Testing their resolve, as it were. It also reminded me a lot of that scene in Lord of the Rings…
Hello, human. You smell of desperation. The feminine voice was like a hundred overlapping whispers. The elongated figure moved among the trees ringing the clearing, stalking him like a predator.
A: So that’s not creepy or anything…
L: I love it.
Indistinct and vaporous, she flowed like a river or an eel, and the only part of her with any specific detail was her smooth, feminine face. She glided toward him until her nose was mere inches from his own, her silken black eyes meeting his. Tiny hands sprouted from the misty sides of her head.
A: Let me just say… EEEeeeeee…
L: Eeeeeee. :D
A: If anyone hadn’t figured it out by now, Lyndsey likes the horror genre much more than I do!
We’ve been hearing bits and pieces of Nightwatcher stories since the third Interlude of the first book. Cultivation, not so much; the first mention of her is in the very last chapter of that same book, and there are very few others. Finally, now, we get to meet both of them, and learn more of their relationship—and there’s a lot here.
The Nightwatcher is so very definitely a spren! All visual imagery and mist, and apparently an itch to figure out what makes humans tick.
What is it you wish of me? What boon drives you, Son of Honor? Son of Odium?
A: Well, that’s certainly an interesting form of address.
L: Yeah. The fact that she calls him both a son of Honor and of Odium… very interesting. I wonder if this is referring to emotional characteristics, or if humans (or just Dalinar/the Alethi) are actually descended from Honor/Odium by blood…?
A: Hmm. I was assuming she was referring to the human relationships with the Shards, but I don’t know why she’d associate them just with Honor and Odium. From what we know, Cultivation adopted the humans every bit as much as Honor did. Readers? What are we missing here?
So the Nightwatcher proceeds to offer all the standard things a human might want: wealth, power, beauty, skill, glory. When his answer is unexpected, she even offers him what has to be Nightblood: A Blade that bleeds darkness and cannot be defeated. And just how did she come to be in possession of that, one might ask.
L: Well, she might not have had it personally? It seems like her powers are pretty strong, maybe she could just… poof it out of the hands of whoever’s got it now, and give it to him.
A: Fair point. We don’t know what she’s capable of, so I certainly wouldn’t put it past her!
L: This is pretty good verification that Nightblood was on Roshar at this point though, for anyone who’s trying to work out the details of timeline… (I doubt that the Nightwatcher’s powers are so strong that she can access other Cosmere worlds. I could be wrong, but…)
A: Another good point. So… Nightblood has been on Roshar for quite a while. I guess that makes sense; Adolin had mentioned being trained by Zahel at some point.
Back to Nightwatcher… “forgiveness” isn’t something she knows how to give, so Cultivation steps in.
THAT IS ENOUGH, CHILD.
A: And… that tells us a whole lot about the relationship! Throughout the next section, the two address each other as “Mother” and “CHILD.” This is, I think, the first time we’ve seen a living Shard, healthy and active in the Physical Realm. (Isn’t it?) Her description is pretty amazing:
If the Nightwatcher’s voice was like a whispering wind, this one was like tumbling stones. … a woman with brown skin—the color of darkwood bark—standing at the edge of the clearing. She had a matronly build and wore a sweeping brown dress. … This woman … she was more than he could see. Vines from her dress curled into the earth, permeating everything. In that moment he knew that he was not seeing her, but instead a fragment with which he could interact.
This woman extended into eternity.
A: I can’t help but wonder how long, with his recovered memories, it will take Dalinar to realize that she is, for all intents and purposes, a goddess—the sort of being that his “Almighty” had once been.
L: Well, he sort of does, here:
Buy the Book
The Stormlight Archive 4
This woman… she was more than he could see. Vines from her dress curled into the earth, permeating everything. In that moment he knew that he was not seeing her, but instead a fragment with which he could interact.
This woman extended into eternity.
L: If that’s not a realization of divinity, I don’t know what is.
A: Yeah, but that was before she took his memories, and she apparently took the memory of herself as well. So I’m thinking that when he has time to breathe again, he ought to remember this moment and go “Oh, hey! Eternity woman… maybe she Knows Things. Maybe she knows about Odium and how to fight him!” (Also, I’d give anything to be a fly on the wall for a conversation between Cultivation and Jasnah!)
But back to Nightwatcher and Cultivation…
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN CENTURIES I’VE COME PERSONALLY TO SPEAK WITH ONE OF YOU. … I LET HER HOLD COURT HERE. IT HELPS HER UNDERSTAND YOU.
A: There is so much to this whole conversation, I can’t possibly deal with it all. I just had to note here, though, a major difference between Stormfather and Nightwatcher. The Stormfather has indicated that despite many earlier Bondsmith connections, his bond with Dalinar has led him to understand things about humans that were never clear before. Here, Cultivation indicates that the Nightwatcher still has a long way to go in understanding humans. Does this imply that, with Cultivation alive and well, the Nahel bond isn’t enough to enable the Nightwatcher to really understand? (Also, this puts an outside limit on when Taravangian visited her; it had to be less than five and a half years ago.)
So then Cultivation tells Dalinar that she’s not going to just give him any big magic fixes; no special abilities or sudden perfection. Instead, she will “prune” him so that he can become what he needs to be. And we’ll talk about that part in Weighty Words.
Relationships & Romances
“You’ll take…” He spoke with difficulty. “You’ll take Evi from me?”
ALL MEMORIES OF HER. THIS IS THE COST. SHOULD I FORBEAR?
Dalinar squeezed his eyes shut. Evi …
He had never deserved her.
“Do it,” he whispered.
The vines and branches surged forward and began to rip away pieces of him from the inside.
A: This makes me want to weep for both of them. In a sense, it’s true; most of the time, he didn’t deserve her. But there were those moments when he realized how much her good opinion meant to him (see also, Hero), when there really was hope for their marriage. For one reason and another, those seeds never quite managed to mature into actual change in Dalinar. Gavilar’s needs, the Thrill, the demands of the culture, and Dalinar’s own unwillingness to admit that he should change, all contributed. Which is not to say that Evi is completely free of fault, though I couldn’t tell you off the top of my head what she should have done differently.
Still, I have mixed feelings about the removal of his memories. He’s spent the past five years hiding in a bottle, and even he couldn’t say whether he was hiding from grief or guilt. For the part of him that was honestly grieving, this is deeply painful, and I think that part of him was greater than he would admit. For the part of him that was just feeling guilty about her life and her death, this feels like too much the easy way out.
Bruised & Broken
He had enjoyed his recent sense of purpose. Simultaneously, his decision had given him excuses. If he was going to the Nightwatcher anyway, then why fight the drink?
He’d spent much of the trip intoxicated. Now, with the alcohol running out, the voices of the dead seemed to chase him.
A: Dude really was messed up, you know? But I can understand the (admittedly twisted) logic.
“I asked the ardents [for forgiveness],” Dalinar said. “I didn’t get what I wanted.”
YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVED.
L: Ouch. (Also sorry but I have to.)
A: I can’t quite tell if she was referring to Dalinar personally, or the Vorin religion in general. Or both. Being a Shard, probably both.
Dalinar shook his head, memory fuzzy. What … what had happened? Had he really asked for forgiveness?
He couldn’t fathom why. Had he felt that bad for failing … He stretched for the word. For failing …
Storms. His wife. Had he felt so bad for failing her by letting assassins claim her life?
A: It’s worth noting that for the past five and a half years, Dalinar really didn’t know that he was responsible for Evi’s death. Until his memories returned, five weeks ago in book time, he believed the same thing as everyone except a few of his elites, Sadeas, and a handful of scribes: that she was killed by assassins, and he destroyed Rathalas in revenge.
Now I’m wondering. We’ve talked a lot about the need for “cracks in the spirit-web” to form a Nahel bond, and we’ve never questioned that Dalinar is broken enough for that. But… are the cracks that allowed the Stormfather to send him the visions a result of his guilt over Evi, or are they the result of Cultivation’s “pruning?” It just occurred to me that the stuff she ripped out of him almost certainly left an opening. Maybe it’s the combination; as Lyndsey noted earlier, there’s a fair indication that he received at least one vision before he ever got to the Valley.
He still wanted a bottle to numb the grief of losing his brother.
He would break that habit. When men abused drink under his command, he’d found that the solution was to work them hard, and not let them taste strong wines. He could do the same to himself.
It wouldn’t be easy, but he could manage it.
L: Atta boy, Dalinar. I do love that Cultivation doesn’t just magically erase his addiction. He still has to work to overcome it.
A: I’m just wondering why he didn’t do this any time in the past five years. Was he not strong enough before? Also, what a hypocrite: He wouldn’t let his men abuse the drink, but he was rarely sober enough to see straight.
Dalinar relaxed, but felt like something else was missing inside of him. … Beyond that, he heard rustling leaves. And beyond that, nothing. Shouldn’t he have heard …
A: The voices?
Places & Peoples
A: There’s an interesting description of the Hexi flatlands, which I won’t quote because it’s long. The vegetation seems odd for Roshar, with trees and grasses that show the effects of the prevailing wind, but apparently don’t pull back into rockbuds or holes in the ground. Apparently, small black chickens flock in the area too.
L: The part that I found most interesting was this:
The ground was covered in wrinkles, like frozen ripples in a pond, perhaps two or three inches deep.
L: So… this could be volcanic, I suppose, but my first thought was some sort of shock wave ripples, as if some huge energy blast happened here and rippled the ground outwards away from it. Because we’ve also got this:
It was like one of the Heralds had strolled through this place and bent everything sideways.
A: There’s so much about this place… and no way to know how much of the description is a hint of Something which caused the formations. The one I really don’t understand, though, is the Valley.
Vines, ferns, flowers, and grasses grew together in a wall of underbrush. …
It all piled atop itself, reeds and branches sticking out in all directions, ferns so overgrown with vines that they drooped beneath the weight. …
“How does one enter?” Dalinar asked. “How do you pass through that?”
“There are some trails,” Felt said. “If you look hard enough. …”
A: So… why don’t the plants all pull back when they’re touched? And why doesn’t Dalinar think it’s odd that they don’t? Or am I mistaken about the behavior of larger plants in general?
Weighty Words
IN DOING THIS, I PROVIDE FOR HIM A WEAPON. DANGEROUS, VERY DANGEROUS.
L: I can only assume that she means Odium, but… why does this pruning make Dalinar a weapon? If she didn’t prune him, would he not have been suitable? Why not? You’d think it would be the opposite… that Dalinar the Blackthorn would be a much more pliable tool for Odium than Dalinar as we know him.
A: Right? We’ve had hints of Dalinar as Odium’s champion, so I’m assuming that Cultivation can see that possibility, and that it is a risk to her. I can only guess that she’s referring to the effect of having his memories returned. It’s possible that she meant that by taking away the memories, she would give Odium a weapon to use against Dalinar, in the upcoming effort to break him. Odium thought to bludgeon him with forgotten things and batter him into giving himself up, and if he hadn’t already recovered those memories, it probably would have worked. What happened instead was that he grew into a wiser man, then got his memories back in a way that he could deal with them one by one; in the end, Odium’s bludgeoning wasn’t anything Dalinar hadn’t already accepted as part of himself.
IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS.
L: To… have a part of him? So she prunes him and… keeps the trimmings? But how does that work, if they grow back? Can she grow a new Dalinar from the trimmings, like you do with spider plants?! (I’m taking this metaphor a little far in an effort to be facetious, but… I am a little weirded out by the fact that she seems to be implying that this deal means that he now has some sort of connection with her.)
A: Oh, I do wish I knew what Cultivation’s strategy is in this conflict, and what this means. I can’t help thinking that Connection with a living Shard is a good thing for Dalinar, but I sure don’t know how this benefits her.
YOU WERE ALWAYS BOUND TO COME TO ME. I CONTROL ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED.
THAT INCLUDES THE THORNS.
L: This is unbelievably beautiful.
“I once heard of a man who visited here, and from then on, every person he touched fell upward instead of down.”
L: Unintentional/uncontrollable lashing, you think, Alice?
A: Brilliant! It certainly makes the most sense of anything I can think of. I just hope they didn’t fall very far, because that would be… kind of awful. As long as it was just a matter of a few inches, like it often is if you trip, it would be funny.
He’d failed to follow the Codes, and that had cost Gavilar his life.
Never again.
L: I love that losing Gavilar becomes his primary motivation now.
Cosmere Connections
“Any idea why [the Nightwatcher] didn’t visit you?”
“Well, best I could figure, she doesn’t like foreigners.”
“I might have trouble too.”
“You’re a little less foreign, sir.”
A: Heh. “A little less” indeed, since Felt is from Scadrial. I keep wondering why he’s here. We know there are three others of Scadrian background on Roshar: Demoux, with the Seventeenth Shard; Iyatil, with the Ghostbloods; and the mysterious kandra we haven’t spotted yet. The first two have obvious reasons to be here; though we don’t know their personal reasons for joining those organizations, we at least know some of what they’re doing. The kandra we can’t even guess at, since we don’t know where she is, much less who. Felt, though… why is Felt here? He’s been part of Dalinar’s entourage for quite a while; five and a half years ago, Dalinar already trusted him enough to bring him along on this venture, and he was still in Dalinar’s employ as recently as the Battle of Narak. What’s kept him on Roshar for six years or more, working as a scout for Dalinar Kholin? Is he working for some Larger Organization too, or is he just adventuring?
L: Do we know for sure what’s going on in Scadrial right now, history-wise? Did he maybe escape when things were really starting to fall apart towards the end of book 3 of the original trilogy? I sure wouldn’t have wanted to go back if that’s how things had been when I left!
Quality Quotations
He clapped his hands, then breathed on them. It had been winter, lately.
A: I’ve missed these weird-season references; after the first book, it became less of a Thing. But there are a few of these comments scattered through the book, and I always enjoy them.
Next week we’re taking on Chapter 115 all on its lonesome. As always, join in in the comment section below!
Alice is thoroughly enjoying the beginning of the Rhythm of War (working title) beta read, and fully expects to be short on sleep for the next three months. Sleep is overrated anyway, right?
Lyndsey is excited to begin working on the beta read for Book 4. No, she won’t tell you anything about it. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
L: Do we know for sure what’s going on in Scadrial right now, history-wise? Did he maybe escape when things were really starting to fall apart towards the end of book 3 of the original trilogy?
Era 2 takes place after Stormlight 5. Dirty math then puts Felt on Roshar ~300 years after Era 1. As a member of house Venture, he probably had access to the Pits, and perhaps the interrealmic trade happening therein. At least, that seems a more likely answer to how he got off-world than by Harmony’s perpendicularity in the mountains post-catacendre.
The kandra we can’t even guess at, since we don’t know where she is, much less who.
My best guess is Mrall, King T’s bodyguard. He is hairless and his conversation with the king vis-a-vis his emotions is almost verbatim TenSoon’s to Vin in Well of Ascension. (That this parallel is intentional does not indicate that I think this is actually TenSoon, just that it is a common philosophical position among Kandra of a certain generation.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/367/#e11745
Ahh man, I thought you were going to quote the “Forgiveness” part. That was some of Brandon’s best writing…
I think this chapter is where my dislike of Dalinar’s character cemented itself.
I disliked this chapter. I didn’t dislike it because I thought it was a poorly written chapter nor an uninteresting one, I disliked it because I disliked how Cultivation just removed Dalinar’s memories. I dislike it because it does feel like the easy way out. So I think it is fair to say I dislike the tale this chapter is telling.
I dislike the numerous allusions of Dalinar always having been able to stop drinking, but choosing not to. I understand grief, but I can’t like the man who behaves the way Dalinar chooses to behave. Oh, if he were another character, I’d pity him, but seeing all Dalinar did, seeing how unwilling he has *always* been to change, to take responsibility, this came across as the drop which broke the camel’s back. The scenes which were meant to stand as “consequences” have always felt hollow to me because, in my mind, Dalinar just never deserved so much… leniency. He got to live a life where he could ignore consequences and abandon himself into the carnage he loved so much, he doesn’t get now to call on my pity because his lack of self-control made him responsible for a horror. He doesn’t get to ask for my compassion because his bout of madness inadvertently caused Evi’s death. He has done nothing to earn my pity nor my compassion, but he has done everything to earn my dislike. Hence, Cultivaton’s pruning, giving Dalinar the means to conveniently forget what ailed him, the very one thing he tried to accomplish with alcohol, but without… the alcohol, it felt unearned.
And Easy. It felt like the easy way out Dalinar did not deserve to get. Had he taken the hard way out, my perception of his character might have dramatically changed, but the fact it is so easy for him… after all he has done… After all of *that*, he gets the easy way out? That never sat well with me.
Hence my reaction to this chapter is opposite to most readers: I dislike it.
I also hated how his primary motivation was… not failing Gavilar… So, once again, Dalinar failed at seeing the ones he should have put himself under control for, the ones who had actually needed him the most: his sons. Luckily for him, his sons grew up fine, without his involvement nor parents, and both turned out loving him deeply despite all. What a turn of event! And what an undeserving conclusion…
So this was quite an unpopular opinion, but I cannot help how I feel about this entire narrative. Young Dalinar was such an unsympathetic unlikable individual, I have always been unable to root for him.
On the side note, I was curious as to why Dalinar heard Adolin weeping or a boy who sounded like Adolin… My impressions are Adolin probably never wept in his entire life, so that felt odd.
So, a woldhopper married a non-worldhopping local who might or might not know anything about what he is. That seems unusual.
I was also amused by “It had been winter lately.” Though the past few months here in New York State have seemed a bit like that — feeling like true winter some days and not others.
Cultivation and the Nightwatcher are interesting, and I would like to see/learn more about them.
Even knowing the truth about Evi, I still prefer it to the pre-debut fan theory, based on Part 1, that regaining memories of his first wife would correspondingly make Danilar forget about his current wife. I didn’t want Navani to suffer that.
IN DOING THIS, I PROVIDE FOR HIM A WEAPON. DANGEROUS, VERY DANGEROUS.
IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS.
L: I can only assume that she means Odium
I think Brandon certainly wants everyone to assume that. But these statements can easily refer to Honor. (I know he’s dead but that doesn’t make the plans he put in place any less active)
I still think Cultivation might end up being the second half big bad after Odium is dealt with. (I think all the shards are ultimately “bad” on their own even the ones that try to be good, as the Intents acting in concert are the only healthy way for such powers to be used well.
I like that all four of the heralds are present. This scene does seem to be all of these qualities to me. Dalinar being honest with himself. Learning from his past. Loving Evi and wishing to be better like she always knew he could be. Trying to learn to be wise and careful in the future regarding his drinking and his actions.
I feel Dalinar has been changing slowly for a long time. In little actions thanks to Evi’s influence. Rathalas was the big turning point for him though. So Dalinar seeing visions this early makes sense to me.
I see the moment where he saw himself taking over the Vorin empire as a form of a test by Cultivation. To see would he truly seek such glory as the blackthorn once would, or does he truly want to change and be better.
I think it is a rather large sign of Dalinar’s changing that he was offered all these things, and all he wanted was forgiveness.
I think the conversation between Cultivation and Jasnah would be interesting. Jasnah would become much more Cosmere aware very quickly, and it would further assert her atheism. I would imagine she would speak to Cultivation with respect, as one ruler to another, and seek greater understanding of the Cosmere at large. From the way Cultivation acts, I think the two would get along rather famously lol.
This scene really lays it all out for me. Dalinar didn’t want to lose Evi. Was terrified of losing her memories. It was only with his admittance that he never deserved her, that he allowed it. Showing how her memory was precious to him. But he sacrificed it to become the better man that she saw in him, and longed for him to be.
Now that his memories were altered to his wife being killed by assassins, and her already being avenged, for myself it makes sense that he would now focus on the immediate death that was his brother. As far as Dalinar knows in this moment, he already grieved for his wife. A wife he now no longer remembers.
I really appreciate calling attention to the ripples in the ground. I missed that on my re-reads, and now is making me think could something analogous to the Shattered Plains have occurred here? Maybe a giant use of cohesion?
I think the reason the plants do not pull back from Dalinar is because this place is far from the stormlands. This is where the highstorms have weakened relatively. Just like how purelakers can just prop their boats up against a rock, and ride a storm out next to it, so too I think the vegetation are much less harassed by highstorms than far to the east.
I think Cultivation saying she could make a tool for Odium is because by taking the memories away, Dalinar could have just as easily gone right back to being the same ole Blackthorn. He no longer hears the screams. If the only thing he felt remorse over was because of the screams, then their removal should mean he would go right back to being the same ole horrible Blackthorn killing willy nilly. But he didn’t. He truly felt remorse for his actions and truly wanted to change. So I felt for Cultivation, this moment was a gamble. Was Evi right to see something good in Dalinar? Seems like she was.
I would love to learn more about Felt. Why he is on Roshar. Is there some greater Cosmere implications?
Lyndsey:
I would say that Dalinar’s redemptive arc has begun when he decided to study the Way of Kings, become a better father for his sons and visit the Nightwatcher. Therefore, the first vision, which he doesn’t rightly remember. Also, since Gavilar was dead, the Stormfather was compelled to move to the next eligible recipient. I do believe, though, and have probably mentioned it previously, that since the Stormfather didn’t really want anybody to succeed in binding him, he went for the worst prospects who technically fulfilled the letter of Honor’s requirements, hoping that they would fail. That, ironically, the Kholin brothers weren’t the best candidates, but the marginally acceptable scrapings of the barrel from his PoV and Dalinar truly surprised him.
Yea, I think that visions of conquest were a test. It is also very intriguing that the Bondsmith spren, despite having been bonded to humans repeatedly in the past, still have so little understanding of them, when in their natural free state. The other Radiant spren whom Our Heroes met in Shadesmar are better in this area, despite having never been bonded. Concerning Taravangian, he thought about visiting the Nightwatcher “5 years ago” in WoR and IIRC Jasnah in one of he chapters in OB also casually noted that he supposedly had a stroke at that time – which was, of course, the camouflage for his fluctuating intelligence. Cultivation’s description reminds me of Sazed’s when he Acsended. Also, do we know that she is in the physical realm and didn’t take Dalinar into Cognitive or Spiritual one instead, like Odium did during the visions?
Personally, I think that distinction between Shards and g(G)od(s) is pretty semantical and is somewhat influenced by Sanderson’s own worldview, just like LoTR was by Tolkien’s . The Shards can hear and/or talk to you, fulfill your prayers if it suits them, etc. That’s more than enough to accord them divinity, IMHO. The fact that they can die, but not really, or are parts of some primaeval greater force doesn’t set them apart from deities of various RL religions either.
I don’t have the text in front of me, but I remember having a feeling that Cultivation somehow blamed humans for Honor’s death in this conversation. At least, that there was a pretty strong hint in this direction, IIRC.
BTW, there is an interesting WoB that while Cultivation hasn’t fulfilled any of the Nightwatcher’s boons in centuries before Dalinar, she gets to regularly talk to a lot of people. I wonder if she doesn’t do The Last Walk for the dead of Roshar, like certain Shards of Scadrial.
Son of Honor? Son of Odium?
I feel that this applies personally to Dalinar – because he _is_ very honorable in the terrible Alethi way and always was, and, of course, also a Thrill addict. His recent decision to study and follow The Way of Kings would have contributed to his Connection to Honor too. And, Cultivation pruning him gave him a Connection to her, too, which, as she hints, could have potentially been used to hurt her in some way.
Concerning Felt and worldhoppers chances to interact with the Nightwatcher in general – let’s not forget that Scadrians are so far unique in that they have been created by Ruin and Preservation alone, rather than being the descendants of humans created by Adonalsium. It is no wonder that they can’t interact with Cultivation-aligned entities – she has no purchase on them, no bridgehead. I fully believe that Nalthians, say, can meet her. It is also very odd how Felt somehow transitioned from Dalinar’s trusted bodyguard, privy to this potentially very embarassing secret, to some nondescript scout. We also don’t know if his wife is actually a local, do we? I am really curious if he has access to some Metallic Arts – either natural or gadget based.
.
Regarding the dreams and Honor. There’s conversations in the Way of Kings with a surgeon whose amazed Dalinar can even move his arms due to the injuries he’s suffered over his very long career. Dalinar just shrugs it off as training.
It’s clear that Dalinar has been surgebinding for years without knowing it. Its really the only way for him to heal these massive injuries.
I think Cultivation’s game here is to ensure that she has some level for influence on Dalinar, because she knows he’s poised to do important things. In the best case scenario, this would lead to her stealing Odium’s champion, but even if things don’t work out that well, she can still prod him in directions that work for her agenda in the meantime.
Because, really, if you look back on it, the three main people who worked to assemble and maintain the Coalition were Dalinar, Taravangian and Lift, who’ve all been influenced by Cultivation to at least some degree. Well, Taravangian also did some work to damage it, but even that was more aimed towards undermining Dalinar than the coalition as a whole; he wants the coalition itself to remain strong.
So it’s easy for me to imagine Cultivation just kind of giving people subtle nudge in the right direction here and there, keeping all her moves subtle enough that Odium doesn’t see what she’s doing, but them all ultimately leading to the world being posed to defeat Odium’s forces.
Why does Dalinar being there 5+ years ago date Taravangian’s visit? T never meets Cultivation, only the Nightwatcher.
He’s not out, though. He re-experiences the pain later. Cultivation just gives him a chance to heal and grow first. It’s the equivalent of a psychiatrist prescribing tranquilizers for someone right after a traumatic event (or at least it’s analogous to it).
@7 Isilel: he went for the worst prospects who technically fulfilled the letter of Honor’s requirements, hoping that they would fail. That, ironically, the Kholin brothers weren’t the best candidates, but the marginally acceptable scrapings of the barrel from his PoV and Dalinar truly surprised him.
I disagree. If you think about what kind of person the Stormfather would’ve been looking for, Gavilar becomes a really obvious choice from his perspective- I don’t think the Stormfather would even consider anyone who doesn’t stand and the top of human hierarchy, because he’s imperious like that. I feel equally certain that he wouldn’t go for anyone who seemed weak in his eyes; he’d want somebody of renowned martial prowess. And finally, since it was going to a Bondsmith, he needed somebody who strongly believed in achieving unity.
So Gavilar, a Warrior King who managed to unite his broken country for the first time in centuries, is gonna be the obvious first choice. And then when that doesn’t work out, Dalinar has most of the same things working in his favour; he may not be quite as high ranking in theory, but in practice he’s gonna basically in control and he’s an even better warrior and general than Gavilar was.
I find it interesting that Cultivation gave Dalinar a chance to back out. I always thought that you asked for your boon, got it, and were cursed for fun after the fact. If this is the regular way it works (or at least, did with Mr. T, who met with Cultivation, too, didn’t he?), then everything that happened, Nightwatcher/Cultivation’s customers knew exactly what they were getting themselves into, rather than generally.
Mr. T met Cultivation, not the Nightwatcher.
Kfirw
Did Taravangian meet the Nightwatcher? Or Cultivation?
Brandon Sanderson
Cultivation. Good question.
Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)
True; we don’t know Malli’s origins. She’s not a “known” worldhopper, but could be an unknown one.
I think Dalinar’s trip to the Nightmother had another consequence that I have not seen mentioned. Cultivation temporarily pruned away his memories of Evi, including his role in her death. The purpose was that he could go on living for a while without those memories (the pruning). Yet, in time it would grow back gradually so that Dalinar could have time to adjust to remembering who he used to be and what he had done. This part of the boon and curse has been discussed in depth.
What I have not seen discussed is that without such removal of the memories (even if temporarily) I do not think Dalinar would have matured into the man we have seen in the current timeline. It as if his bloodlust and personality traits that made him the Blackthorn also withdrew. As a result, there was room for his current day personality to flourish. I believe that had the bloodlust and Blackthorn related personality traits remained, they would have choked down his current personality.
Did the Nightwatcher really have Nightblood? Could she have given it to Daliner had he wanted a “Blade that bleeds darkness and cannot be defeated?”
Is the “him” that Cultivation refers to (when she tells Dalinar why she will grant Dalinar his boon) Honor? I think it is. That said, I could still be convinced Cultivation refers to Odium.
I think at this point in the timeline, Cultivation did have Nightblood and that is why Nightwatcher could state she could have given Dalinar that weapon. Although had Dalinar accepted, I think that Cultivation would have told Dalinar that Nightblood was not Nightwatcher’s to give. While I doubt that Nightwatcher could have understood the magnitude of what Nightblood is and could do, I think Cultivation does. I think (but with no way to prove it) that for some reason, Vasher/Zahel needed something from Cultivation/Nightwatcher and that Vasher was willing to give up Nightblood to receive said boon. Otherwise, I cannot imagine how Nale came into possession of Nightblood. I cannot think of a reason why Vasher would give Nightblood to Nale. Under my theory, Nale came to Nightwatcher/Cultivation. I am not sure if the Heralds are aware of the true nature of the Shard Holders (Honor and Cultivation); do the Heralds know about the larger Cosmere and Adonalsium? As a result of this visit, Nale received Nightblood.
For that matter, how much of Nightblood did Nale know. He knew enough to know that the aluminum sheath was keeping Nightblood sedated.
Cultivation’s statement that it has been centuries since she spoke to “one of you” can still work with my theory. Cultivation may see Vasher as more than a mere human (if the “you” referred to humans). Also, you may be a Rosharian; Vasher is not from Roshar, and therefore, not “one of you.”
I suspect I may be in the minority. I do not blame Dalinar for his actions at the Rift (including, ultimately the death of Evi). He believed that something spectacular had to be done to the Rift and Tanalan. Otherwise, others would resist. As uncivilized as the destruction of the citizens were, it is (in this case) an unfortunate circumstance of the battle. The same way that dropping the atomic bomb saved the lives of US troops in WWII. The alternative would have been an assault on Japan by US soldiers. Likewise, I could have understood had the Fused and Regals executed all humans in Alethkar. They only kept them alive to use as slave labor. Part of this could have been to show the run-of-the-mill singers that they are still not the bottom of the social rung.
Tanalan did not have to lock up Evi. He could have rejected her offer for peace and sent her back to the Kholin camp. Tanalan sought to use Evi as a weapon against Dalinar. IMO, I do not believe it is reasonable to fault Dalinar about killing Evi. He had no reason to believe that she was a captive or that the Rift used that area where Tanalan’s father once tried to hide as a prison. It would have been one thing if Dalinar had specific knowledge that Evi was a prisoner and Dalinar still burnt the entire city with all citizens inside.
Nevertheless, I can understand why Dalinar would blame himself. The part of him (even at this stage in his life) tried to fight the Thrill and thought that burning everybody went too far. Dalinar thinks that if he did not go too far, then Evi might not have died. I think Evi was dead the moment she entered the Rift. Tanalan was all about getting revenge on Dalinar. Killing Dalinar’s wife would have been the best way for Tanalan to get such revenge. It would have been payback.
I think Dalinar should be held more accountable where he let himself be so consumed by the Thrill that he killed some of his own soldiers.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Ah, I love this chapter! So many answers. And so many new questions. Is this the first time we’ve seen 4 Heralds on the chapter head? I think it is, or one of only a few. It’s a great signal to those paying attention that *something important* is gonna be going on.
The Nightwatcher is even more creepy to me the more times I read this chapter; I think the first time I blew through it so fast I didn’t recognize what I was seeing. Definitely more creepy than I care for, but also SO COOL. Between her and the Stormfather I’m excited to see what the Sibling looks like. And that’s not even starting on Cultivation. What a neat view of a Shard and its Intent. My guess as to why the plants around the Valley are so strange is because of the presence of the Nightwatcher and Cultivation; they make things grow so well that they don’t need to protect themselves like most flora on Roshar.
I go back and forth a lot on whether Dalinar’s acceptance of his Pruning means he was weak and didn’t deserve Evi, or it means he was strong enough to realize where he needed to grow so he let go for awhile. I suspect as a person it would be somewhere in the middle of both. So much guilt for her and the others, which he can’t get away from. And more guilt because he knows he should be better but he just can’t be. And in a position where he needed to help Elhokar and Sadeas with the vengeance pact when he wasn’t able to function. I love though that he was able to deny the possible greatness and beg forgiveness, I don’t know if I could do that. All these things just make him an amazing and flawed character. I wish he (and so many of the others) was a real person we could sit and visit with!!
As for worldhoppers… Felt is so interesting. I never noticed before how short he is next to Dalinar-barely to his chest!?! That skaa upbringing and lineage didn’t help him out much in the height department! Also, as regards the kandra on Roshar, I heard just today a theory that Mrall of the Diagram May be him. Not sure how much weight that really holds, but I plan to look for it when I reread the series later this year
What makes you think Vasher gave Nightblood to Nale? We don’t know who brought Nightblood to Roshar. We don’t know how Vasher lost Nightblood, if that happened. Heck, for all we know Nale went to the Nightwatcher 3 years before the “present” of this chapter and she granted him the boon of Nightblood, then stole it from Vasher (or someone). We have little idea of what she does or can do, besides grant boons.
At least one is. In a later chapter Shalash calls on the name of Adonalsium, just before she passes out.
Thanks for the pointer, @Ulim. That actually both annoys and pleases me. Annoys, because it makes me wrong, which is annoying. :)
Pleases, because it supports my idea that Taravangian is a mirror image of Dalinar.
The idea that the “PROVIDE FOR HIM A WEAPON” of Cultivation’s speech refers to Honor makes zero sense to me. Honor is dead.
Well i dont believe this either, but i get the argument. Its similar to Vin, for example, you could argue, that she was Preservations Weapon against Ruin, although Leras himself was dead at this point.
Yes of course, Odium told him that, when they first met
Gepeto @3:
To be fair, in his previous flashback chapter (IIRC) when Dalinar formulated his plan to visit the Nightwatcher, one of his motivations in his PoV _was_ becoming a better father to his sons.
Gilphon @11:
The Stormfather is quite disdainful of martial pursuits and repeatedly reminds Dalinar that he is not supposed to use his powers for fighting. There is no reason to think that he would see warmongers as ideal candidates for his Bondsmith. We also know that he didn’t want Dalinar to succeed with his bond, he admitted as much in WoR. Gavilar was on the Bondsmith path for over a decade and didn’t even reach the First Ideal – which supports the notion that he wasn’t the best material for the job. While I agree that Stormfather’s Bondsmith had to be a prominent figure to begin with, but it doesn’t mean that Kholin brothers were the only possible choices.
AndrewHB @15:
If Dalinar had accepted Nightblood, Cultivation wouldn’t have made an appearance, because he would have failed her test. And the Blackthorn was exactly the type of person that Nightblood kills, so he could have been handed it with no worry that he’d misuse it – he wouldn’t have lived long enough to leave the Nightwatcher’s lair.
While I have certain sympathy with Dalinar’s predicament re: the Rift, where all his attempts at mercy only lead to further trouble, his order to close the retreat route was where he crossed the line for me. The burning itself, I can understand how it might have been necessary from Realpolitik point of view, since the Rifters have spit on every attempt to resolve the matters peacefully. But the statement wouldn’t have been any less powerful if those who could were allowed to escape, apart from Tanalan himself and his family. Trapping the civilians in a raging inferno was just evil.
Joyspren @16:
Felt was a minor nobleman, not a skaa. But Rosharans are taller than Cosmere average and Alethi are the tallest people among them, so most worldhoppers would look conspiciously short in comparison. I imagine that both Vasher and Vivenna used their nifty ability to modify their bodies in order to pass. And that Shallan would likely be seen as tall on another world.
And yes, Mrall does look like a likely kandra candidate, but we’ll see.
@19 If I remember right, Dalinar didn’t order the retreat closed. He said to kill anyone who comes out – referring directly to any further messengers. Sadeas interpreted (deliberately misinterpreted?) that as an order to cut off retreat for the whole city and so he ordered soldiers around to burn it from the other direction, too. Dalinar was legitimately surprised when Sadeas explained what he had done since that wasn’t Dalinar’s intention.
Also, I agree that the Stormfather had no desire or intention to actually become bonded.
@15 AndrewHB
I find it surprising that you’re willing to give Dalinar a pass on literally any crime he commits as long as he’s wearing a uniform while doing it.
Comparisons to American in WWII are entirely inaccurate, as the Rifters are not in any way an aggressive empire that declared war on the Kholins. They were trying to hold in to their independence against a bunch of murderous imperialists, and their only “crime” is wanting to not be conquered. In this situation, Dalinar is the Japanese, gleefully invading all of his neighbors for the crime of having stuff he wants.
“Otherwise, others would resist.” This explanation seems familiar; as I recall, the Nazis used it to justify the destruction of Lidice. It is the classic rationalization of the state terrorist, who is sadly forced to kill huge numbers of people so that everyone will kneel before them. The alternative, in this case, is that Dalinar goes home and tells his brother that murdering and conquering people is wrong. It’s a wonderful choice that allows everyone to remain breathing.
I don’t get how Dalinar’s actions can be justified in any way, as he is the aggressor. Gavilar is a murderous usurper with no legal claim to the Alethi throne, and he only rose to power by killing huge numbers of people, many of them innocent civilians like the residents of Rathalas.
@19: Ah thanks for pointing this out. I seem to have missed it. I focused on Dalinar stating, in this chapter, it was all for Gavilar.
@20: Dalinar did order to let no one escape: whether this was accomplished by killing anyone trying to escape nor actually blocking the exit path is meaningless since the result would be the same. Sadeas’s wrong was agreeing this was the right course of action and not disobeying, but let’s not forget this was all Dalinar’s idea in the first place.
@21: Yes. This.
I never understood why readers came out so harshly on the Rifters and Tanalan. What was Tanalan’s real crime? Wanting to stay independent? Not wanting the brutal warlord who slaughtered his home, murdered his father, and stole his heirloom to keep on forcing them to bow down to a self-named king? I never understood how Tanalan’s quest was seen as the “the wrong one” when it has been clear the invaders and the antagonists have always been Dalinar and Gavilar. Sure, Tanalan betrayed an offer at peaceful resolution, but from his perspective, Dalinar is the man who killed his father and took away HIS Shardblade… but because he spared him and his mother he should feel eternally grateful and not hate the ones who literally conquered his homeland?
This might have been one of Brandon’s greatest subversion: having us realize the character we were initially rooting for has been… a villain for most of his life. To have us realize Gavilar wasn’t a nice person and his conquest wasn’t a moral endeavor.
I would have preferred Dalinar either going home and saying there is a line he will not cross or just fight the Rifters the usual way, against their soldiers, sparing the civilians. It wouldn’t have made a better story though, this is true, but at least Dalinar would come across as more likable. As he is written, I just cannot like the man. He is an aggressor who got away with little consequences and on the day he wants to turn the page, a diety interferes to grant him gifts beyond what he ever deserved.
It is very hard for readers who view Dalinar’s actions as essentially evil and needlessly aggressive to swallow this pill. I find it hard to accept Dalinar should be loved and glorified given what he did, but the narrative and the entire readership is saying Dalinar did nothing wrong and should be loved and glorified… Ah sigh. This is a hard one.
I believe there’s a WOB that Dalinar represents both the best and worst aspects of both Honor and Odium.
I’ve recently reread the Prolog for Oathbringer. Gavilar speaks with Eshonai after the signing of the treaty. He gives her a dark gemstone exuding void light and speaks of reviving their Gods. Gavilar’s death was certainly pivotal, and his meeting with Eshonai was a catalyst for that turn of events. How differently would things have gone if Venli had encountered Gavilar at that moment instead of Eshoni? Small precision changes in a potential timeline can have a huge impact.
The Stormfather chose Gavilar to receive the visions, considering him to be a potential Bondsmith. In light of the fact that Odium infiltrated Dalinar’s visions, we can surmise that Odium also infiltrated Gavilar’s visions. I now believe Odium had successfully tricked/convinced Gavilar to furthering his own cause. If Odium’s plan had come to fruition, Roshar would be facing a revived Voidbringer army aligned by treaty to the Alethi, a fearsome army for the destruction of Roshar. Instead, Gavilar was murdered.
This was only a brief respite, of course, for the desolations have returned. Was Eshonai’s visit with Gavilar Cultivation’s doing? Gavilar would have been a powerful weapon for Odium. His death delayed the desolations by about 6 years. It has been said that Cultivation plays a long game. She is better at seeing the future that Honor was. In this way, small changes can have major impact on future events.
If my theory is true, Cultivation was successful in depriving Odium of Gavilar. She mostly avoids human bickering, and all the petty wars. But she does not want Odium to succeed. Cultivation saw that Dalinar might become Odium’s champion. In order to prevent this, she needed time for Dalinar to become a better man, though she acknowledged the risk of relying on him to change enough. The pruning of Dalinar’s memories was another small tactical intervention in her long game to hinder Odium.
Loony theory time. Did Cultivation use the chasmfiends to delay the inevitable return of the desolations? It seems like a tactical distraction. Appeal to human greed with a series of gem heart war-games in order to stall the Alethi war effort. If the Alethi were bent only on revenge, the Listeners, would have been forced to wake their ancestors sooner. Odium eventually prevailed. He got his Everstorm. But the delay served Cultivation’s purpose. Dalinar had time to grow into a better version of himself. So far, it looks like he will not become Odium’s champion.
@Isilel: I means, he does say stuff along those lines, but it’s a practical stance, not a moral one. ‘Just so you’re aware, the Bondsmith powerset isn’t extremely useful for direct combat. And also, don’t you dare reduce me to being a mere sword.’ He’s not making any kind of moral stance against violence.
And, indeed, we see that he does not have any kind of moral stance against violence; his reaction to the Rift is ‘Why is that a big deal? I’ve killed cities for basically no reason at all, so why would it be wrong for you to kill a city that betrayed you?’ And he gets downright offended when Kaladin tries to convince him not to kill a bunch of random villagers who couldn’t get to shelter in time, because he, as the Highstorm, is not supposed to be capable of mercy.
The Stormfather is a creature who thinks nothing of killing things who get is his way. He does so totally without malice, out of the simple belief that getting in his way is an act akin to suicide. The people who he chose to bond were the people whose ideology was the closest match for his own.
Dptullos, Gepeto:
Are we supposed to think that Tanalan’s claim to authority is based on something other than a successful military conquest by his ancestors and subsequently sufficient military prowess to keep what they gained? Were people better off with a bunch of constantly squabbling Princedoms? Historically, at a certain point unification of a multitude of polities into a country is beneficial, even though it often happened through conquest. It is a complex issue.
And also, Tanalan putting his people in harm’s way for the sake of revenge and because he wanted to be on top of his small pile and not answerable to anybody is hardly admirable.
@26 Isilel
Well, the people of Rathalas were better off before Dalinar burned their city down and killed everyone. And they were hardly his first victims; you can’t conquer all of Alethkar without killing a whole lot of people along the way.
Tanalan’s claim to authority is the same conquest-based justification that every other Alethi ruler uses. However, he’s not the one invading the Kholin princedom and burning down their capital.
The people who argue for the benefits of long-term unification are usually those who aren’t on the ground during the process of conquest, which tends to be somewhat unpleasant for civilians. Besides, Dalinar explicitly does not care about the hypothetical long-term benefits to the common people, as his entire explanation is “They have stuff. We killed them, and now we have their stuff.”
@24 I don’t think Odium could infiltrate Galivar’s visions back then. I’m pretty sure he was very limited to what he could do up until Taln finally broke. (Otherwise he is incompetent IMO)
Carl @17. To be clear, my theory was that Vasher went to Nightwatcher/Cultivation and voluntarily gave up Nightblood. I was clear that it was just a guess. No factual support to back it up.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@28
True.
@26: Tanalan is not a saint nor is he without faults, but I do honestly relate much strongly to his desire to keep his princedom away from the Kholins than the opposite. You claim the quarreling princedoms was a worst outcome than Gavilar’s conquest, well, considering the fact Alethkar hadn’t had a king in centuries, it was up to Gavilar to convince everyone this is actually true. So far, his convincing methods implied rampaging, killing, and destroying all who wouldn’t readily bow down to him.
Also, if you were a Rifter, what advantages would you see in bowing down to Gavilar Kholin? The man destroyed your city once, killed your friends, and his brother not only murdered your former Highprince, he stole his Shardblade. So what advantages were Tanalan and his people supposed to see in unified Alethkar? It seems to me all they see was a usurper king who sat on a throne he earned for himself after he killed everyone who’d oppose him.
So while yes, Tanalan needlessly endangered his people, there is nothing in the textual which states his people didn’t agree with Tanalan’s plan. More so, the outcome probably far surpasses what anyone thought was going to happen: no one could have guessed Dalinar would take it this far. Had he know, Tanalan might have done things differently. Yes, he tried to use Evi, but what choice did he have? She was basically the only mean he had to try to force Dalinar NOT to kill everyone living in his city and it failed because Dalinar killed the messengers.
@27: I agree. Tanalan wasn’t the one trying to invaded and kill his neighbors. The Kholins were. Sure, he attacked Dalinar, but Dalinar was an invading force. Tanalan knew he had no means to defeat Dalinar in a battle, so he had to take the chance to take him out before. On the other hand, Dalinar did not need to burn the Rift to defeat it.
I would also add older Dalinar has a very different take on the conquest. He downright advises Adolin never to try to unite using the Blackthorn’s methods, he comes to believe what they did, the war of unification, was essentially wrong even if the outcome is desirable. He has come to realize how you accomplish a task is often more important than the end result, so while unification is theoretically a good thing, killing everyone to achieve it is not.
I, however, agree younger Dalinar never thought of long-term consequences, he only thought of the immediate benefit to himself: more stuff, more battle, more people to kill.
I can’t help but wonder how important that early quote will be. “It’s like trying to stop a storm by blowing harder.” I sometimes wonder if, as important as all these methods are, thier biggest weakness is they leave a counter opening for Odium to strike through
P.S. forgive me if I phrased that poorly
You linked to the wrong Rolling Stones video. Surely you meant to link to this one?
@Gepeto: I completely agree that Tanalan was on the right side and Dalinar on the wrong side. I don’t take the narrative as being “Dalinar did nothing wrong” but as being “Dalinar did horrific, evil things and received mercy that he didn’t deserve”.
I love stories about mercy and forgiveness, so I’m happy with that.
But I do get your point that it’s frustrating that Dalinar’s past actions don’t prevent him from occupying a post of authority and power or from being generally admired by most of the people on his side, including those closest to him. On the other hand, people like Kaladin admire him because he did genuinely admirable things.
The thing that troubles me about Dalinar’s arc is how much it’s made solely about Rathalas, as if before he remembered it he viewed himself as a generally decent person, and after he remembered he realized he was a terrible person.
But the Blackthorn was terrible even before Rathalas! He gave his own soldiers debilitating injuries in sparring matches! And he knew those things, he remembered those things, and we’re given little indication of him thinking about them at all. When Adolin idolizes the Blackthorn in TWOK, I don’t recall any definite conversation where Dalinar explains to him that that was not a good thing to be. And that’s something that should have happened as part of his reform.
Alice / Lindsey – I don’t know if either of you can say anything about this, but I was surprised to see that the Beta read has begun. In Brandon’s Reddit update last month, he said that the book would be sent out to beta-readers after the 3.0 draft. He just announced last night on Twitter that he’s finished the 2.0 draft. Has he done a 3.0 on the early part of the story or are the beta readers getting it earlier than originally planned? Quite understand if you can’t give a response on this, though.
@34: I totally agree with everything you have said.
I am not frustrated at seeing characters such as Kaladin admiring Dalinar: he never had reasons to feel different next to the Dalinar he does know. I am frustrated at his family for not acknowledging the man he once was, especially given the flashbacks we did get.
@35: I agree again. I also wondered why Dalinar’s story seems to start at Rathalas when the flashbacks showed us how his life prior to it wasn’t explementary.
I agree the question as to why Dalinar never raised the issue with his own son after seeing how much he hero-worshipped the Blackthorn is odd. This is part of the reasons I struggle so much with this arc: it focuses on Dalinar’s pain over one event while ignoring everything he did remember.
Shouldn’t his redemption also include the behavior from before Rathalas?
@Gepeto: it is extremely realistic for a person’s family to be in denial about their bad aspects. Real alcoholics will routinely have their defenders within the family, especially if (like Dalinar) they’re hypercompetent in some situations and are domineering
This doesn’t mean you have to like Dalinar, but it does mean that I, for one, don’t think showing this is a mistake on Brandon’s part.
It’s a redemption story. For that, you have to start with a character who needs redemption..
It makes me wonder whether, when Brandon wrote the earlier two books, he hadn’t fully thought through how dark Dalinar’s backstory was going to be.
@38: This is a good point. I have always found Adolin’s reaction being “realistic” given how he has always hero-worshiped his father and given how he seems a tad naive at times. I can make sense of Renarin’s reaction given he always yearned for his father to give any attention, he was not going to criticize him on the day it finally happened.
It has always been Jasnah, Navani, and Elhokar which made little sense, at least, to me, especially Jasnah and Navani.
I don’t really think it necessarily was a mistake, it worked for too many readers, I just think it is not working for me. I have many issues with Dalinar’s character arc… He is so… unsympathetic and dislikable. He literally has zero redeeming qualities up until he gets his magical lobotomy and starts changing, but before this event, his glimpses of goodness are too sparse and too few to really offset his negative traits. Hence, everything which happens to him feels unearned and undeserved.
I get it though. We needed a character needing redemption, but Dalinar’s redemption, as it was told, just does not feel earned. I do not feel the man we read deserved the magical gifts Cultivation bestow on him and while I do get it was part of a plan, the end result is Dalinar feels like he was given the butter and the money to buy the butter at the same time. The fact he wants to put this butter to good use is not enough for me, I wish we had read him needing to earn the money before he got to buy the butter. The price he paid for his butter seems… so small… forgetting the wife he never really loved and was terrible with. This isn’t a curse, this is a boon: he got to forget how bad he was! He got to live his life without remembering how he treated his first wife! He didn’t have her ghost to keep on recalling him who he once was.
In other words, I wish Dalinar had become a better person before he went to Cultivation.
@39: I think he knew and seeing how positive the readership’s response to Dalinar’s character, I have to admit what he proposed worked for the majority. I am the outlier for not enjoying how Dalinar’s progression was depicted in the series.
So I do think Brandon knew Dalinar’s backstory would be dark, I just wondered why he didn’t give him more… palpable redeeming qualities. For instance, he didn’t need to make him a bad father nor a bad husband. He didn’t need to make him such a terrible person within every single sphere of his life, it just makes the fact no one sees it rather… unfulfilling, at least, to me.
Hence I do wonder what was the purpose of making young Dalinar so unsympathetic and dislikable. It seems the same narrative would have worked if he had been a moderately better person.
@Gepeto
You say they see a man who kills everyone, who opposes him and you actually have to ask, what advantages they would have had by not…. opposing him?
@41: Should we readily accept opposing the Kholins was a futile effort that only resulted in more death and, as such, Tanalan should have caved in and accept Gavilar Kholin’ self-proclaimed right to rule? Using the same argument means the Americans should have never declared independence because it generated a war that killed people nor the French should have done their Revolution because it ended up in the years of Terror.
Our history is filled with people, nations who wouldn’t just bow down to invaders (or just fought for democracy) and still tried to fight, even if it caused death, because they believed freedom was actually worth fighting for. Some causes are just more righteous than others and when your homeland is being invaded by barbarous warlords who kills your leader and steal a valuable weapon, you do have a righteous cause.
And if there is one powerful motivator and one righteous cause, it is the right for people to govern themselves, it is the right for people to be free of invaders who came unwanted into their lands, killing their leader, and taking away his heirloom. How about the Great Wars? Should have all countries readily accept Germany advancing into their lands because fighting back would cause more death than just caving in?
Tanalan believed his princedom was better off outside united Alethkar. Given the circumstances on how it was appended, I can only share the sentient. Conquering your neighbors in order to form up a large kingdom with you as the King is never going to be a righteous cause, no matter what “visions” might say. Fighting against invaders will always be more righteous. So while Tanalan made mistakes, his cause, down to its root, remained just, far more just than Gavilar and Dalinar’s entire campaign where they slaughter villages because “it was the next one down the list”.
The fact Tanalan misjudged the situation, made mistakes perhaps even mistakes of greed, and ultimately caused his people’s doom does not mean he did not have the right to fight nor he should have bowed down to the invaders. It certainly does not mean Dalinar was righteous in his need to burn Rathalas.
I can only speak for myself, but I always prefer reading about those who fight oppression, not those who enforce it. Sadly, in this tale of old Dalinar’s younger life, it is clear to me who was the oppressor and who wasn’t.
Yes, absolutely. Their only hope was to kill Dalinar in this ambush and even that wouldnt have saved them from Sadeas and the rest of the Kingdoms armies
Yeah thats not meant to be vague or hard to figure out at all.
Marbelcal @24:
This is a very interesting and original theory, but I don’t know. From what we have seen of him, Gavilar wasn’t a Thrill addict like Dalinar – and it was through that addiction that Odium had forged his Connection to the latter. Gavilar also tried very hard to direct Alethkar’s politics in a less violent direction once he won. It would also be disappointing if every wrong-doing was partly attributable to supernatural influence – people are fully capable of going astray on their own.
Dptullos @27:
People on the ground during unification campaigns absolutely suffered – that doesn’t mean that unifications weren’t typically beneficial to the populace in comparison to existence in an ever-shifting collection of squabbling minor fiefdoms. Which is what Alethkar was pre-Gavilar and what Tanalan Jr. hoped to return it to.
And Gavilar very quickly moved beyond his initial looter motives to the dream of unification. He was probably already thinking bigger in Dalinar’s first flashback and certainly was in his second. Dalinar himself would have liked to continue like they started for much longer, of course, but he was always a loyal agent of his brother, so… In fact, compared to many important historical figures, Gavilar positively stands out by his willingness to stop his conquest after unifiying the one relatively culturally homogenous area and settling down to reforming and improving it. Too many of even the most successful Byzantine Emperors, for example, never knew where to stop and as a result made their gains more ephemereal than they could have been and unnecessarily strained and wasted their people’s resources and lives.
Gepeto @31:
You can never “convince everyone” – people’s egos, greed and prejudices will always be in the way, as Tanalan Jr. so aptly demonstrated. Why should he – and the Highprinces have cared about what is best for most as long as they got to play top fish in their small ponds? What advantages did Alethkar enjoy under Gavilar’s rule? Peace and safety within it’s borders – that allowed commoners to prosper, ease of trade, ditto, and flourishing of sciences and arts facilitated by all of this. But advances like that don’t matter to people like Tanalan, who was willing to put his own children, not to mention his subjects, in mortal danger for the sake of revenge and self-aggrandizement. Tanalan was the one who spit on all attempts to resolve the matters peacefully and who interpreted them, as well as the initial mercy that allowed his own survival as a child as aweakness.
@43: Except Tanalan did not know his plan would failed when he launched it. He had reasonable chances of success and potentially allies waiting for his ruse to succeed before publicly materializing themselves.
The fact his plan backfired and caused everyone to be brutally murdered by Dalinar does not mean he was wrong to stand up and fight against invaders. Also, when a crime is committed, it is never the victim’s fault, it is always the aggressor. Hence, Tanalan is not to blame for Dalinar over the top response: he couldn’t plan for *that*. No one could.
No one can plan for unwarranted acts of aggression which defies all previously agreed upon morality: the Kholins were invaders, but they usually spared the civilians. Tanalan couldn’t plan for Dalinar deciding to break this unofficial rule and to burn everyone alive.
Hence, the fact his rebellion had a terrible outcome is not his fault: it is all on Dalinar and Gavilar. They are the ones to blame because they are the ones who started it all and while Gavilar tried to get his campaign some noble motives, Dalinar had the right words for it: “We saw other people had stuff, so we took the stuff they had and made it ours”. I don’t necessarily like Dalinar, but I think we can trust him for being honest: he said thing as they really were, without the sugar-coating Gavilar was trying to use to disguise what he has done into a benevolent action.
So while Tanalan might have benefited from a more careful long-term approach to his rebellion, I do not find the fact he wanted out of Gavilar’s kingdom to be reprehensible action. I think he was right to oppose the Kholins because, at that point in time, the Kholins were the oppressors and the aggressors, not matter how divine Gavilar tried to make their actions be seen.
@41 Havi
I laughed out loud when I read your comment.
Gavilar spent a lot of time and energy trying to find ways to legitimize his rule over Alethkar once he became king, but it really did come down to stabbing. According to WoB, Gavilar wasn’t even the rightful heir to the Kholin princedom, but he seized power in a disputed succession by being the most capable murderer.
And yes, the main advantage of joining Team Kholin is that you don’t get murdered. The Mongols had a similar approach to empire-building, though Gavilar seems to have been very scared that his kingdom wouldn’t last after he died. That was the fate of the Sunmaker’s empire, after all, and there are plenty of real-life conquests that didn’t last much longer than their founding generation.
@42 Gepeto
Tanalan is not a revolutionary committed to a righteous battle against tyranny. He’s a hereditary tyrant fighting against another hereditary tyrant who is trying to make his brother Chief Tyrant. Everyone here is an oppressor, though Tanalan is fighting in defense of what he has rather than trying to conquer a bigger realm.
Alethi peasants tend to be somewhat indifferent to who rules them. Lands change hands, families fight for power, and their place remains much the same. I don’t see any signs of early nationalism in Alethkar, as ordinary people seem to just accept changes of rulership like they accept changes in the weather. The transition of power, however, is very, very important to the lower classes, as it is their villages that get burned whenever their betters have a dispute over who is in charge.
Maybe the right thing would have been to kneel to the self-crowned tyrant Gavilar and his murderous brother? After all, Tanalan’s people weren’t self-governing anyway, and what difference does it really make if their highprince now has to bow to a vicious warlord? They’ll still pay taxes, obey the local landowners, and go about their daily lives without armies rampaging through the countryside.
@43 Havi
I don’t think Genghis Khan had any right to rule Central Asia, but if I was one of the local rulers I would pay tribute in a second.
@44 Isilel
Gavilar had lots of ideas for reforms and improvements once he won, but his kingdom was still forged on the essential principle of “might makes right”. He took the Kholin princedom and then united Alethkar through brute force, so why shouldn’t every bold lighteyes dream of murdering their rulers and taking their place? That is what Gavilar did, after all.
As we see, Elkohar could never have maintained a united Alethi kingdom, and he only survived and stayed in power because Dalinar was there to prop him up. Many conquerors seek to carve out a grand realm for themselves and their descendants, but that realm usually falls apart once the founder isn’t around to hold things together.
If it wasn’t for the Desolation, the kingdom would never have outlasted Dalinar. The Blackthorn would die, and the highprinces would see a weak king sitting on a throne that anyone can claim with a sword. A second round of Alethi civil war would follow, and the most likely outcome would be a collapse of the kingdom back into divided princedoms.
I don’t remember ever seeing a moment when Gavilar cared about the commoners. He wanted to forge a strong kingdom to pass down to his kids, but he had plenty of opportunities to care about the little people, and I don’t recall any evidence that he took them.
@45 Gepeto
Tanalan’s plan was “assassinate the Blackthorn to gain personal vengeance for my family”. This was not a bad plan from the perspective of gaining personal revenge.
Unfortunately, the benefits of that plan would have helped only Tanalan, while the costs would be born by everyone in his princedom. If he had succeeded, Gavilar would have shown up with a bigger army and a burning desire to avenge his brother. Since Tanalan would have slain Dalinar through treachery, Gavilar would probably have been more vindictive than usual, and Kholin armies were not noted for their kind treatment of civilians at the best of times.
Tanalan’s personal revenge, however understandable it was, simply wasn’t worth the cost.
44. Isilel
I was mostly contemplating the small ways that Cultivation might have acted to delay the coming desolation.
@44: Unification is not always preferable… Real-life is filled with examples of nations being forced to unify themselves into greater entities only to eventually seek peaceful independence. Scotia, Catalan, Quebec all naturally come to mind as nations considering themselves culturally different enough from their greater entities (Great-Britain, Spain, and Canada) to believe independence is preferable. As such, there is a threshold after which the economical benefit of being part of a large entity just do not counter-balance the cultural issues it is generating.
Alethkar might not have managed to develop a real populist movement, but I cannot help but see Tanalan’s desire to break away from the Kholin tyranny as legitimate. I never disputed the fact part of his motivations were tied to personal greed, I certainly agree a larger part was tied to vengeance, but he still tried to fight for an oppressing semi-dictatorship built on the blood of the people for the benefit of Gavilar Kholin. Of course, I doubt Tanalan had pushed the reflection that far down the line, but Gavilar’s reign is still not legitimate.
So while the concept of unification might have been beneficial to all, the take Gavilar had on it certainly wasn’t: no country built on bloody conquest can ever last and the means used to reach a supposedly peaceful ending completely invalidate the process. In other words, there can be no peaceful unification when all parties have been forced to join by force. Tanalan stood in to represent why it is wrong to invade your neighbors, no matter how “grand” or “magnificent” you believe your end goal is.
Also, Dalinar did state having notice Gavilar trying to justify their war through some invented higher motives. He’s the one who spell it out: this isn’t why they started the war, the started it because they wanted more stuff for themselves. All of Gavilar’s great speeches, his pretense at building a great dynasty for the good of everything, it was nothing more than chull dung disguised to look pretty.
Gavilar first made the war, proclaimed himself King, then processed into pretending his motives have always been noble from the start…
@46: Brandon has indeed confirmed Gavilar was not in the line of succession for the next Kholin Highprince. In fact, he was quite far down. He won the title through warfare and there are hints he killed all opposition. When one reader asked what happened to the other branches of the Kholin family, Brandon merely answered there weren’t as many of those as there once were… I always took it as indirect confirmation of Gavilar having exterminate them which would explain why he was mad at Dalinar for sparring Tanalan Jr.
On Tanalan: I do not think we have enough textual evidence to call Tanalan a “tyrant”. For all we know, he might have been an appreciated and devoted Highprince to his people. We do however have enough textual evidence to state Gavilar was a tyrant. Dalinar, not so much, he never really thought things through, the was just the hammer, he never was the hand which directed the hammer.
And yes, Tanalan was fighting to get back what he believed was his by inheritance and also for vengeance. Still, even if misguided by his desire to get revenge, Tanalan was still fighting against the ones who invaded his land. I think we should not forget without Gavilar’s conquest, there was no issues at Rathalas and the city still stands. I find it harsh to blame it all on Tanalan when the real catalyst were the Kholins coming knocking on their door frame to enhance Gavilar’s dreams of greatness.
This being said, Tanalan should have been more patient, bid his time, and not hurry nor rush himself up in a rebellion. His plan was too hasty, too risky though we only say this because he lost and the price was high. There has also been narrative clues Tanalan had support outside his princedom, so it may be he truly believe, once Dalinar is out, he could beat the Kholins armies.
In the end, I do agree it wasn’t worth the cost, but at least it served to highlight how illegitimate and hypocritical Gavilar’s rule was… and like many Emperors, he died young. Assassinated by those afraid of his influence and growing power from the enemy he never saw coming. In my heart, I cannot blame Tanalan: he might have been unwise, I do think his desire to fight back was far more legitimate then… any decision Gavilar ever made.
@48 Gepeto
I agree that Tanalan was obviously better than Gavilar and Dalinar, but that is an incredibly low bar. Moral blame belongs to Gavilar and Dalinar for being mass murdering conquerors who felt themselves entitled to take anything they wanted; practical blame belongs to Tanalan for not seeming to care about all the little people who were going to die in his family feud. He couldn’t control his enemies, but he could have just stayed dead and let Rathalas remain alive under the rule of the tyrant.
Also, while Gavilar and Dalinar are nothing more than particularly capable murderers, they are particularly capable murderers. Tanalan’s plot to overthrow them was unlikely to work, even if he had killed Dalinar, and it’s doubtful that many of Rathalas’s lower classes would have been on board with plan “Kill the Blackthorn and hope his brother doesn’t take horrible bloody vengeance”.
@48: I do not think we have enough textual information to state Tanalan did not care about his people. This statement is based on the fact his strategy was risky and ultimately failed in a spectacular disaster which caused everyone to die. Still, my counter-argument is Tanalan couldn’t predict Dalinar would take it out on the civilians the way he did. He can’t be put at fault for Dalinar’s decision since Dalinar acted outside the expected range of reaction we have seen from the Alethi army. Tanalan couldn’t have known this would be the outcome.
Hence, it is entirely possible Tanalan genuinely believed he had reasonable chances of winning. It is entirely possible his outside support was large enough he had reasonable chances to believe he would win the ongoing war he would trigger. It is entirely possible he thought his family and populace were safe, down there in highly defensible Rathalas, and wouldn’t be slaughtered.
It is also possible Tanalan was a hopeless optimistic who naively thought it’d be easy to win once Dalinar is dead. It is possible he was a vengeful fool too and yes, it is possible he didn’t care about his people, only about his personal gain, but I do not think the narrative allows us to conclude.
The narrative does allow us to conclude Gavilar, for one, did not care about the population and neither did younger Dalinar. This is an issue we cannot, however, resolve since the only side of the story we got to read was the Kholins.
Dptullos @46:
Transition of power already often worked via violence in Alethkar, as Dalinar’s conversation with the doomed Highprince Kallanor during their duel amply shows. Dalinar specifically mentioned that Kallanor himself had gained his position due to his martial prowess back in the day. So, in this sense Gavilar usurping the main Kholin branch was not a disruption, but entirely par for the course.
It is also far from certain that the kingdom would have split again under Ehlokar – there are so many variables for something like this, beginning with the timing of Gavilar’s death. If he had lived for another decade, it would have improved his son’s chances greatly. If Jasnah hadn’t been distracted by her research into Desolations – prompted by her father’s assassination and her witnessing Szeth’s powers – she might have been able to protect her family’s position better. And let’s not discount Adolin… While the royal Kholin dynasty certainly would have been in danger after Gavilar’s and/or Dalinar’s deaths, it’s fall wasn’t a foregone conclusion, IMHO.
Ironically enough, Sadeas, of all people said that they’d have to take care of the darkeyes in Dalinar’s first flashback and Gavilar cetrainly tried to steer Alethkar in less violent and more law-abiding direction. Yes, it was seld-serving, like such things normally were, but it was also beneficial to wide parts of the population.
Gepeto @48:
We aren’t talking about modern societies, so your examples are apples to oranges. In the past, it was generally preferrable to be part of a unified country than of a collection of squabbling independant fiefdoms. Sure, there were exceptions, when central authority became too oppressive and/or to unwieldly. I have the greatest admiration for the Dutch War of Independence from Spain in the 16th – 17th centuries, but they had actual good reasons and also tried peaceful means first. But Tanalan Jr. was no William the Silent and nothing demonstrates it clearer than that he had no actual grievances that his people had allegedly suffered beyond the conquest itself to justify his rebellion. You call Kholin rule “Tyranny… built on the blood of the people”, but how is Tanalan Jr.’s rule any different?
I also can’t disagree more with your assertion that: “no country built on bloody conquest can ever last”, since iRL most modern countries exist in their current forms as a result of series of conquests. And while some countries so built may have vanished eventually, a number of them too had existed for several centuries or even millenia. We don’t have to like this fact, but we shouldn’t pretend that this is not the case. Or, indeed, that we only stopped valorizing conquest and conquerors relatively recently, in historical terms.
It also doesn’t matter why Gavilar started the war – it is quite evident in Dalinar’s flashbacks that he changed and expanded his goals pretty early on, which Dalinar disliked and endlessly carped about in his earleir flashbacks. From them it is also evident that Alethkar became peaceful during that time, with only the border fighting with neighboring countries. So why should anybody be sympathetic to Tanalan’s desire to return to the glorious days of perpetual free-for-all? I mean, this was creeping back under Ehlokar, as seen through Kal’s flashbacks and it wasn’t pleasant.
@51: The reason I brought forward modern societies was to illustrate unification, even if beneficial on many fronts, might still be resented and pose issues to the population hundred of years after they were forced. I meant to illustrate the argument the Rifters were better off inside unified Alethkar and had nothing but advantages is not the sole foregone conclusion. They might have not have seen it that way.
There is also no textual evidenceTanalan’s people suffered from his rebellion prior to Dalinar’s arrival. I called the Kholin’s rules a “tyranny” and I implied Tanalan’s rule as different because, as far as we are aware, Tanalan was not trying to invade his neighbors. He was not trying to conquer other princedoms, he was simply trying to take his own lands outside of unified Alethkar. Sure, it may be Tanalan Sr was a mass murderer and an awful person, but the narrative does not allow us to conclude it. Let us also not forget Tanalan Jr was named Highprince at a very young age which implied he had the support of his Brightlords. It may very well have had the support of his people: the argument stating the population was not supporting Tanalan’s rebellion also isn’t the sole foregone conclusion.
So far the leading argument is Tanalan should have bowed down to Gavilar Kholin and accept he has been conquered for the sake of his people. How about Gavilar Kholin himself? If Tanalan wanted to keep his independence and was not keen to recognize Gavilar as his King, then he could have negotiated a peace treaty, letting Tanalan keep his lands, allow him to stand outside unified Alethkar, so long as he agreed not to attack his neighbors and opened up to trade. He could have given him compensation for the loss of his Shardblade. Having Alethkar bow down to him as King was not the sole way to achieve a unified front: it merely was the way Gavilar employed. Sure, he did was his predecessors did but this does not absolve him of his faults: by conquering through violence, he invited others to challenge him through violence, and when he used more violence to quell all dissident voice, then he certainly isn’t projecting the image of a fair visionary King.
Therefore, Gavilar could have ended up the rebellion without any bloodshed. It was his refusal to hear out Tanalan and to attempt at accommodations which led to the rebellion. Sure, the narrative mentions Gavilar tried to stop the rebellion, but without getting the actual details, it is hard to figure out what he actually did or if he really tried. Seeing how Gavilar has behaved in the past, I am more tempted to believe he took the hard-line more than him making a real effort at negotiating.
Hence, Tanalan might not have been the brightest fish in the pond, but he was not the one to throw out the first stone. Also, free for all wasn’t the sole alternative here and Tanalan served to illustrate not everyone agreed to Gavilar’s conquest. The narrative does state it: Gavilar managed to have all who wouldn’t readily bow down to him killed and replace them with his “friends”. He was not a great person, no matter how he tried to make his “ideals” sound more “noble” as he cemented his position as King.
How do you expect that to happen? Again, its not a modern setting and the Alethi culture is built around conquest. In earlier chapters Gavilar himself says, that the other highprinces observe the situation to see, what they themself would be doing. If Gavilar gives independence to rebels without even fighting, the other highprinces would a) demand independence themselfs or b) unite against the “weak” ruler
Why do you keep bringing this up, noone ever said that Gavilar or Young Dalinar were anything other than villains. you behave like youre the only one who understands the “real” narrative and if everyone understood your “different” view, they all would agree with your opinion.
@53: But see, they are not rebels, they are people who were forced to enter united Alethkar. They never agreed to it in the first place, hence they are not rebels, but people fighting for their own freedom. Why would they support the man who got their fathers, husbands, and sons killed the first time he came visiting?
I insist on Gavilar being a villain in response to arguments stating Tanalan was one too and should have let Gavilar do what he wanted to do. The fact Gavilar was a villain is enough for me to justify Tanalan’s rebellion. I strongly dislike the idea everyone should just bow down to Gavilar, not oppose him because it would result in more warfare: this behavior only serves to validate Gavilar’s actions, making him right in his actions since the end result is considered desirable. Granted, Tanalan’s rebellion ended up in a disaster, but one only made possible by Dalinar going way over the range of expectations. It is not enough to sway my opinion from favorable to Tanalan’s claims and unfavorable to the Kholin’s conquest.
I never claimed to be the only one to understand the narrative: I can only speak of how I am viewing the narrative while acknowledging my opinion certainly isn’t the majority. So yes, when trying to discuss an unpopular opinion, one will have the tendency to reinforce key points which validate this opinion. This is only natural. If my opinion had strong support, then I wouldn’t need to defend it nor to spend time explaining it.
@Gepeto, I don’t think many people, including Dalinar himself would argue that pre-Rift Dalinar was anything but a frightening monster. That’s a key aspect of the story, that he is horrified by what he did.
If I perceive things correctly, what you find unsatisfying is that he hasn’t suffered–been punished–enough to balance his hideous deeds, to earn forgiveness. That’s a perfectly legitimate reaction to the story, in my own opinion, although I don’t react that way.
I can’t help but read a Christian theme in here. In most Christian sects, forgiveness is not earned, it’s a gift from a supernatural entity that is by definition more than the recipient merits.
@55: You would be surprised at how many readers are actually viewing young Dalinar in a positive light… In the discussion at hand, I have noticed the readership seemed more inclined to share the blame of Rathalas on Sadeas (for closing out the exit even if Dalinar ordered him to) and on Tanalan (because his betrayal is what caused Dalinar to go over-board with retaliation) then to agree Dalinar was the villain and the aggressor within this sequence. I have found there was effort being put into depicting Tanalan as a bad person who deserved being executed and watching his family die while no one argued Dalinar would have probably deserved being executed for Rathalas as well.
While I agree the second paragraph summarizes my usual stand, I am ill-at-ease with the word suffering being used here. It makes it sounds as if I were wishing Dalinar was stripped naked, tortured, and whipped until I personally deemed it enough which certainly far surpasses my intends. What I meant is I always felt the consequences Dalinar did receive (his alcoholism and inner pain) were not enough to offset the bad deeds he is responsible for. The deed was too strong, he went too far, the price he had to pay was not, to my eyes, enough to truly atone for his crimes.
I agree about your analogy with Christian themes. However, being an atheist and not being part of a sect, this isn’t a thematic which resonates strongly with me. I believe for redemption to be efficient, one first need to atone for the crimes, pay the price for the crimes, then proceed into bettering one self. Dalinar went through it backward: he got the magical gifts and the forgiveness before he got to atone for his crimes and now he stands so high in the hierarchy, he probably never will have to bother with consequences for his actions.
That’s the crux. And it made me react to any character having been willing to oppose Dalinar, especially young Dalinar is a favorable light, hence my reaction to Tanalan. Tanalan tried to stop the monster Dalinar once was. Even if he made mistakes which ultimately got his whole town destroyed, he cannot help but side with him here: he was trying to teach Dalinar a lesson. No one else in-world has attempted the same, everyone just praises Dalinar. So I have to like Tanalan for trying and for almost getting away with it.
Do you, perhaps, have any example for that? I dont know even a single soul liking young Dalinar and would be really surprised
@Gepeto:
I’m also an atheist. I’m just doing literary analysis here. :-)
For instance: atone is “at one” and literally (or at least originally) means to return to oneness with God, the community, or someone you have offended against. (The original pronunciation of “one” was that of modern “own”, which is why it has the terminal e.) I’m seeing it as religious because this is a book partly about religion and faith.
@57: I am not comfortable giving away other people’s nicknames. However, if you wish to read different opinions on young Dalinar, I would invite you to browse through Reddit or some of the 17th Shard threads. In there, you will find readers having different arguments and indeed viewing young Dalinar more as a sympathetic unloved misguided man more than a brutal wild beast. The reality is probably somewhere in between the two.
Of course, I don’t think I ever stumbled on a thread where this was the leading argument, but it is an argument some readers have made.
@58: Ah. Well. I didn’t know that. I agree the book plays with religious themes and I would argue Dalinar’s redemption is probably better appreciated by readers not only more familiar, but also more sympathetic to religious beliefs than I am.
Re: Dalinar and forgiveness (jumping in late, sorry): If Dalinar could have become a better person on his own, he wouldn’t have needed Cultivation’s gift. That’s the paradox in some way. I also love mercy/forgiveness stories so I do think it’s an interesting tension. I’m do happen to be religious, although I don’t see the concept of undeserved forgiveness/mercy/grace as *necessarily* requiring some supernatural component. So, he’ll get the forgiveness first, and that is in part what will allow him to become the better person, and then atone (in whatever way he can, because how do you truly atone for something like that? He can’t die a thousand times…).
That said, I know the feeling because as much as I love it in fiction, I struggle with it in real life. There was an incident recently where somebody died, and the media went on about how this person was so great, and even turned their life around, etc. But all I could think about (since I wasn’t a particular fan of this person) was that this person had allegedly done some awful things. Maybe they really did actually find redemption, but it’s still weird to think about from the point of view of the victim and how, even if they found forgiveness and atonement, the victim’s pain doesn’t necessarily go away.
And I definitely lean more towards the pro-Tanalan side when it comes to young Dalinar and Rathalas.
@60 Dalinar’s situation while fantastical, seemed straightforward. His crippling self-loathing was, in fact, crippling.
Regarding Rathalas, I don’t sympathize with them- more or less at all. The escalation of the situation to the point where there was no mercy, good faith, or reason in action was controlled by them every step of the way, escalated by them every step of the way, and with them obtaining transactional incremental benefits with each escalation they initiated- as was their intention. The balance of forces wouldn’t obtain the result they wanted, and they “broke the rules”, over and over, seeking a new paradigm where they would. The matter going from a conventional Alethi intra-city state conflict to a state of nature with Odium’s champion was their choice, and their only complaint before the irrevocable end was that it hadn’t worked. They *liked themselves*, but they weren’t people you’d want to face- blinded by their desires, and unconcerned with others.
@60: The absence of a viewpoint from the victims is one of the narrative elements which has harmed my perspective on Dalinar. The fact this narrative was entirely focused on his pain made me emotionally disconnect from it because his pain was not the one I thought was important. I felt for his victims, for his living family, but I did not feel for him. I never want to feel for the aggressor.
I want the aggressor to be punished before he can try to redeem himself because punishment and a sense of justice are ALL a victim has left, even if this victim is dead. The problem with Dalinar is he gets the redemption before he actually tries to redeem himself. The problem is it puts the aggressor’s pain above the victims. The narrative made Dalinar’s pain more important than the pain he caused and I kept thinking he should have been the opposite. Granted, the Rifters are dead, but there is still his family… He harmed them too…
@61: The only individual who broke the rules was Gavilar when he decided he had to create a kingdom to be king of, sending Dalinar to slaughter all of his enemies to replace them with allies, on the pretense this bloodshed had a positive outcome. Everyone who ever thought of opposing Gavilar was, in my mind, on the side of right. Everyone who sided with him either saw no other way around it or an opportunist.
Rathalas absolutely did not call on to their faith: nothing anyone can ever done would deserve this faith. They had to right not to want to bow down to a conquerer king just as they had the right not to think much of the “advantages of united Alethkar” when the cost for them was the life of their fathers, sons, and brothers.
Gavilar and younger Dalinar Kholin were men who deserved being opposed, denounced and fought against.
@62 – I suppose it’s the difference between punitive and restorative justice.
@63: Justice can be both punitive and restorative: the two are not mutually exclusive. Justice can serve to provide suitable punishment while striving to rehabilitate the aggressors and help them earn a redemption.